Ultrasounds are already being performed at Planned Parenthood clinics. Also, the National Abortion federation even says abdominal ultrasounds are more likely used.

Of course ultrasounds are being performed, Publius, when they are determined by the physician to be necessary. That is quite a leap from requiring them in cases where they serve not useful purpose. And abdominal ultrasounds are not more likely in early pregnancy cases, as they are not effective. If the Virginia GOP thinks that, why not amend the bill to say that an abdominal ultrasound is sufficient? It wouldn't satisfy the concern about the government mandating that women undergo an unnecessary medical procedure, but it would cut down on the use of the word vagina.

Dear Karen -
"Of course ultrasounds are being performed, Publius, when they are determined by the physician to be necessary. That is quite a leap from requiring them in cases where they serve not useful purpose."

Wrong. They are already required at Planned Parenthood as part of the procedure.

"If the Virginia GOP thinks that, why not amend the bill to say that an abdominal ultrasound is sufficient? "

The bill states 'fetal imaging ultrasound.' Look up the definition. No where in the bill does it mandate a probe. I spoke to several women who had an abortion at PP and other clinics and ALL received an abdominal ultrasound prior to the medical abortion.

Karen -

"Planned Parenthood facilities in locations where state law requires an ultrasound (like Texas) must comply. But they do not, on their own, require medically unnecessary abortions."

Alana Goodman at Commentary Magazine called Planned Parenthood clinics in Virginia. She found out ultrasounds are part of the abortion procedure at the clinic.

See the link here:

http://redalexandriava.com/2012/02/22/99-of-abortion-clinics-perform-ultrasounds-prior-to-abortions/

I also spoke to Doctors who have performed abortions previously. Of the 6 I spoke to, 5 said they did ultrasounds as part of the procedure.

So, unlike the left, I am not 'misrepresenting' anything.

No where in house bill 462 or Senate bill 484 does it use the term 'trans-vaginal ultrasound.' A woman already has to give her consent under the law to have an abortion. Also, the National Abortion federation even says abdominal ultrasounds are more likely used.

Publius, please cite the source for the assertion you are attributing to the National Abortion Federation.

Dear Karen -

You can read the bill here:

http://redalexandriava.com/2012/02/16/are-alexandrias-delegates-misleading-the-public-on-house-bill-462/

The National Abortion federation link is here:

http://redalexandriava.com/2012/02/21/confirmed-david-englin-is-misleading-the-public-on-house-bill-462/

Pub, I have read the bill. Many times. The National Abortion Federation does not say what you are claiming. You have every right to your opinion, but misrepresenting source information is not a good way to make your point.

That is not accurate. Please share the source of your information about the rate of ultrasound usage. This bill is NOT about merely allowing someone to see their ultrasound.

If we want to advocate for women to have more medical information, let's urge legislators to stop mandating unnecessary and invasive medical procedures and stop restricting access to birth control and reproductive choice information.

This is the real reason behind the uproar over the legislation:

http://redalexandriava.com/2012/02/20/why-david-englin-opposes-ultrasounds-house-bill-462/

Attacking Delegate David Englin over opposing the ultrasound bill? Brilliant! Pleeeze try to paint him the villain for standing up for the rights and dignity of women. By all means, credit him for fueling the backlash that has the governor backtracking. Send your link as far and wide as you possibly can. I'm quite fond of Delegate Englin, and I will enjoy watching his support soar, and his margin of victory widen against whatever Vagina GOP candidate decides to run against him in the next election. Well done, Red Alexandria!

Karen -

"If we want to advocate for women to have more medical information, let's urge legislators to stop mandating unnecessary and invasive medical procedures and stop restricting access to birth control and reproductive choice information."

99% of abortion clinics already perform an ultrasound prior to an abortion, why not make it 100%?

See:
http://redalexandriava.com/2012/02/22/99-of-abortion-clinics-perform-ultrasounds-prior-to-abortions/

Pubs, to support your misinformation, you have cited a source in which information was misrepresented. Respectfully, an essay arguing passionately and emotionally is hardly a viable source document for accurate information about the opposing viewpoint. Do you have a valid, reliable, original source for your assertion? Not something taken out of context and twisted, or excerpted from the discussion of an exceptional or non-relevant case that you mistakenly apply to this discussion?

Trust me, I want you to continue to link to the Red Alexandria essay, for reasons I've already stated. But to pass that off as a reliable source, well, that's just not credible. And besides, I think the statements by the governor (links in another post) have all but conceded that would have indeed required transvaginal ultrasounds, and that it was a mistake to go that far. If this could be fixed by specifying an abdominal ultrasound, the GOP would do it. But since it can't be, it seems they will be passing toothless legislation making the ultrasound optional. Toothless, because it already is optional.

Karen -

Call the number yourself at Planned Parenthood as I have. This is the recording you get.

“Patients who have a surgical abortion generally come in for two appointments. At the first visit we do a health assessment, perform all the necessary lab work, and do an ultrasound. This visit generally takes about an hour. At the second visit, the procedure takes place. This visit takes about an hour as well. For out of town patients for whom it would be difficult to make two trips to our office, we’re able to schedule both the initial appointment and the procedure on the same day.

Medical abortions generally require three visits. At the first visit, we do a health assessment, perform all the necessary lab work, and do an ultrasound. This visit takes about an hour. At the second visit, the physician gives the first pill and directions for taking two more pills at home. The third visit is required during which you will have an exam and another ultrasound.”

We must ensure that every day women are targeted for abuse by their government, every day freedom and choice are curtailed, it's in the news.

T, I'm not sure I could do that. Can you provide a list of the last five Republicans you voted for? How did that work out for you?

News Flash!!! Virginia's Republican Governor derides the overreach of Government and urges changes in this bill. Michele Menapace seeks new reason to explain travesty.

Really? Really? Patch cites "Saturday Night Live" and " Jon Stewart's "The Daily Show" for reaction to a Virginia bill still in debate? Really? Next you will be quoting from www.fairfaxunderground.com where you can find insightful comments on this subject as, "I support mandatory color video of all abortions, with close-ups of the moment when the fetus dies." Well, at least they would be local insights, and you can gather quotes mocking pretty much anything. Would you quote Keith Olberman, Rachel Maddow, Rush Limbaugh or Mark Levin for your articles on Fairfax social issues? Really? Would it not be more journalistically relevant to the Patch objective to instead include reaction from Planned Parenthood or religious officials in our neighborhoods?

Mary, you are clearly very angry. But you have misunderstood, or are intentionally overlooking, the purpose of this article. The Patch did not suggest that the comedy shows were serious news or even opinion. The point was that these popular, national television shows have targeted Virginia politics because of the bills being considered by our legislature. These bills affect people in the Patch coverage area. Rarely do the citizens of a given state know the details of legislation being discussed in their state capitals, and it's even more rare when those bills get the attention of news or comedy on the national level. I know from your other comments that you support the GOP bills, but the fact is, the rest of the country is laughing at us. That in itself is news, and I appreciate the Patch bringing it to us. Based on the number of comments, I would say it captured the interest of readers.

Which just goes to show Karen just how stupid people are when listening to the media.

Witness the excerpt from this documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8

Pub: Looks like the Governor is one of those "stupid people" who caved to the liberal media bias - however, he will not suffer any negative consequences.

Karen writes: "Mary, you are clearly very angry."

Not really, I was really just mocking SNL. Really. Or, really, really, as Shreck would say. Watch the video again and you'll understand.

"But you have misunderstood, or are intentionally overlooking, the purpose of this article."

Correct, I am intentionally overlooking the purpose of this article.

"The point was that these popular, national television shows have targeted Virginia politics because of the bills being considered by our legislature."

Really? (There I go again). Not exactly. These two shows seek opportunities to mock the Republican agenda, whatever that might be. Lauren Jost just got caught up in it. I enjoy when Patch digs a bit deeper, interviews those involved, and reports how the laws will actually affect us, beyond the rhetoric. I do agree that this article is not directed at critical thinkers.

"These bills affect people in the Patch coverage area."

Not nearly as much as many other bills working their way through the legislature. I would have preferred a Patch story on the bills that will have a profound impact on us and the ability of our reps to help or kill them as appropriate. I'm fascinated, for example, by the two very different approaches being used by David Bulova and Chap Petersen this term.

Wow, I hit the 1500-word limit and had to split this one. Cute comment about Tolstoy when that happens.. Continuing...

"I know from your other comments that you support the GOP bills."

Not true. They are a waste of time, catering to a fringe minority. Which is why once the grownups got involved they were changed. I'm just having some fun during a quiet day at the office.

"But the fact is, the rest of the country is laughing at us."

Nah, they laugh at the shows. The shows use humor to put forth their political views. That those outside The Great Commonwealth (of which Fairfax County is not representative) laugh at us for Lee-Jackson Day, the War of Northern Aggression, and our teachings that US History is Virginia-centric means that they just don't understand.

"Based on the number of comments, I would say it captured the interest of readers."

Now if those readers would just click the freakin' ads then Patch could succeed.

"Which just goes to show Karen just how stupid people are when listening to the media.

Witness the excerpt from this documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8
"
Captain Kangaroo is ALIVE!!!! Now, THAT's a funny video. Imagine if Patch could receive 2.5 million hits.

Yes! The Christian Caliphate in Fairfax County, which includes most of the Board of Supervisors, school board, and elected state officials is in serious trouble here. That well-annotated Pew study is a beacon of hope for us. After yesterday's mass demonstration by Catholics publicly walking around with ashes on their foreheads, we can only hope for their early demise. There were so many I could not even count them all. Who would have thought the Christians had infiltrated so many areas of our lives? Comparing the politics of Virginia to those in Iran just shows how evil our once great nation has become with all these Christians in charge.

Mary, I wasn't saying that Christianity is bad, wrong or evil. What I was saying is that there is no place for it in the government. The writers of the constitution understood that the church and state should be separate. Most of them had fled from places where that wasn't true to have the freedom they desired to America. Jesus is quite clear on this, "render unto Caeser (the government of that time) what is Caeser's and unto God what is God's". He's saying there is a difference between your religion and your government. For example if you believe in compassion and kindness for the less fortunate, the weakest of society, then you simple can't be a Republican or be for the Republican agenda. No republican can actually be a Christian as per Christ's teachings. The Republican Christians pick and choose what part of Jesus's teachings they like and then build a holier the thou temple around it to satisfy their warped and angry ideas on things. the same thing applies to Muslims. The Koran, when you take out the crazy parts like revelations in the bible, is full of compassion and kindness for the less fortunate in society. That there are crazy people hijacking the religious teachings of Mohammed is the same as the crazy people hijacking the religious teachings of Jesus in this country.

You raise some excellent points, Mike. The religious persecution that the early Jamestown settlers and their descendants escaped is often overlooked by historians who would have us believe that the expeditions were undertaken solely for profit and glory. The "establishment of religion" clause in the Constitution is why we must now turn off the cameras during the opening prayers at each Congressional session.

"If you believe in compassion and kindness for the less fortunate, the weakest of society, then you simple can't be a Republican or be for the Republican agenda. No republican can actually be a Christian as per Christ's teachings."

So true. The purpose of the state and national Government is to redistribute wealth and ensure local governments do not interfere with national objectives, as Jesus taught. Some people actually believe that the Republican party was formed to abolish slavery. The Republican opposition to forcing faith-based hospitals to fund abortions is just a slap at Obama, not a matter of belief or teaching. Just look at how the Republicans forced all those orphanages and adoption agencies in DC to close down.

"When you take out the crazy parts like Revelations in the bible, is full of compassion and kindness for the less fortunate in society."

Yeah, that whole Revelation of St. John is pretty freaky, especially after 20:3. I much prefer The Gospels, but my real faith is in the Psalms.

I can see why you feel this way. The musical performances aren't very funny.

I'm not sure vetoing this is the key to being the VP choice, especially if Romney ends up as the nominee. Romney is going to need to pick a social conservative as a running mate if he wants the full support of the Tea Party. Approving this measure would only make McDonnell a more attractive pick.

Fully agree. It's a choice, not a child. The Government should not interfere with my God-given choices. They already won't allow me to marry my brother and sister at the same time. And they've taken away my right to choose among the many mind-altering drugs. Someday the Government may even take away my right to choose health insurance. Oh. wait. I have an idea for another SNL video for Patch to write about.

Thank God that most Christians in Virginia are Democrats. The 2012 elections are over before they even began. But now is not the time to let up! It's important to keep macaca, tea party, and abortion rights in the news so that voters are not misled into talking about tax hikes, deficits, or the jobs created by the Virginia Republicans during the Great Recession.

The bil requires that "to determine gestation age, every pregnant female shall undergo ultrasound imaging...". The fact of the matter is that an EXTERNAL ultrasound, the kind where they rub gel on your belly and run a wand over it, CANNOT detect gestational age in the first trimester. So, in order to comply with the law, an INTERNAL ultrasound would be required during the first trimester, which is when the majority of abortions are performed. Governor McDonnell is now backing away from his previous support for the bill, saying he didn't realize that an INTERNAL - i.e. transvaginal - ultrasound would be required to comply with the law. I don't believe his excuse, but if true, it's one more example of why men should not be legislating anything related to a woman's genitalia or sex organs. They don't get it.

It's extremist and frankly, moronic, to describe a zygote as a "tiny unborn baby". Don't legislate your religion or morals on me. Your truths are not my truths. I respect your right to believe. Please respect my rights to not.

"It's extremist and frankly, moronic, to describe a zygote as a "tiny unborn baby". Don't legislate your religion or morals on me. Your truths are not my truths. I respect your right to believe. Please respect my rights to not."

Absolutely. Zygote sounds more like a breakfast cereal. Although once it develops little fingers and toes it may be hard to swallow.

Dear Gail -

Who the heck is Lee? While yes, a trans-vaginal ultrasound (TVU) would be used in very early stage abortions when the baby is still in the pelvic area at < 6 weeks, a majority of early stage abortions occur after 6 weeks according to Doctors I have spoken to. The bills do not mandate a TVU or probe as the media and the left are making out to be. Planned Parenthood already requires it as part of the procedure.

Consider these facts: 52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week (not 6th) of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

This is largely Delegate Bob "Holier-than-thou" Marshall. My reply to him is: Don't want an abortion? Don't have one. You be a legislator (he's certainly not "representing" a significant portion of his constituency); let doctors be doctors.

Sorry, the links ran together. Here's the second story: http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2012/feb/22/3/daily-show-latest-to-lampoon-va-ultrasound-bill-ar-1707568/?referer=http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftimesdispatch.com%2Far%2F1707568%2F%3Ffb_comment_id%3Dfbc_10150586049574370_20885746_10150586334289370&h=OAQGaAH7o&shorturl=http://bit.ly/yCAFLk

"Virginia, where the radical right wing Republicans are sticking their noses right into the middle of your personal lives" - ah, so close. "Virginia, where the radical right wing Republicans are sticking their noses right up your crotch" is a lot more accurate. Or: "Virginia, where the radical right wing Republicans are sniffing your business."

Yes, as you said, it's all for The Love of God that Republicans want to move jobs from Virginia to India, and support Scott Walker balancing his state budget by encouraging employees to contribute to their own retirement savings instead of demanding that the taxpayers do it through the unions.

Personally, I'm OK with the Governor when he sells wine; much better than with people like you who sell whine.

The revision still mandates a medical procedure, EVEN IF the doctor does not believe it is necessary. Surely the governor does not see this as good policy. He knows the law would fail in the courts, if enacted.

I have vowed no votes for Virginia Republicans if the governor signs this bill or allows it to become law without his signature. I have also vowed not to support any national ticket on which his name appears as a candidate or endorser.

Why have this bill at all? What value does this bill have? There, I asked. Happy now?

Ultrasounds will be free, especially if they are related to abortion or other methods of birth control protected by Obamacare. No one will pay for them. The Government will just write a check to the provider, using the Greek model of macroeconomics.

Isn't the trans-vaginal approach what gets most women pregnant in the first place? What we need is an "Abort Now" button on ultrasound machines, so at any time during the ultrasound procedure the mother can exercise her God-given right to decide.

Mary, God decides everything, even abortion, anger and all forms of suffering. To say otherwise is to say something is greater then God. That's probably a pretty scary thought and I would suggest you stay away from it.

Absolutely, Mike! Free will was about a swimming mammal, not a religious belief. I pray every night that God will decide that I need more orgasms.

It's been a great discussion, Mike. I'm more scared about how high the tolls to Dulles will be than I am about this silly abortion debate. But it's been fun. Now I have to get back to work.