I guess entertainment options are pretty limited in rural Virginia...

The public opinion of Fox Perserves is distorted. I have been trialing for the last eight years. These facilities are operated with the fox's well being in mind and provide safe houses as well as the proper food and medical attention. In those eight years, I have never seen a fox killed or injured. I see more foxes killed by automobiles on my drive to work each day. You, the gereral public, need to visit a fox perserve and actually see what takes place, other then relying on miss informed media or fraudulant orginations. Oh by the way, the video you watched was STAGED!
VOTE- NO

I made this video last year for the General Assembly. Please watch. It is from a friends preserve. It might not change your mind, but it will show what a preserve is and looks like.

http://youtu.be/BJ9UfsIAM9s

Mr. Miller, if it is really "training," then why are there competitions with huge cash prizes and trophies? If it is truly about teaching the dogs, then those things are not necessary. Your group has perpetrated this falsity for far too long. Please pursue another hobby in which no animals, including your dogs, are hurt. Try volunteering at a homeless shelter, soup kitchen, or the like.
And Ms. Allen, that video would have more credibility if it was made by an uninvolved third party.

There is one thing I would like to know. Where is the data on paper that states a fox in better off and will live longer in the wild? All I can see is you don't like it. I haven't seen anybody or any organization with data to back up the plight of the fox. If the fences were torn down, the fox would be chased by hounds, but would also be hunted with weapons. Attacked and killed by coyotes which are producing in alarming rates, be hit by vehicles, trapped and killed for their fur etc etc.... I did the video in earnest and it is not doctored. It is a true preserve where the fox may have to outwit a young hound, but is safe from all the other thigs mentioned. Show me some data on the inside vs outside and I will listen..........

I went to that preserve and it was awesome. They were lounging around enjoying napping in a tree. Also I never saw a drop of blood on any of the hounds. Wouldn't there be blood if they were ripping apart foxes????? I saw families being together and folks cooking out and just enjoying the outdoors. Field trialing is just that. So what a hound gets a trophy if it is the first to find the scent and shows an exceptional skill following the scent. What is so cruel about that? You have chosen to assume things you have no legitiment proof of.........

Hear the dogs? That is what we love...It is called full cry. It is not baying or ripping a dog apart....They are excited about smelling a scent......Do these folks look like murders or folks that would get a rise out of something tortured???? See any blood??? This is my proof.....where is yours? The youtube videos you all gasp over are staged.

http://youtu.be/F1JRzO2kMmg

The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries estimates 6,000 foxes have met their demise over the last five years through these fox pens; this data doesn't square with penners' claim that it's all just wholesome good fun. The era of watching animals kill animals for entertainment is over. Virginians don't want this going on in our state. Christians can't reconcile this with our mandate to take care of (steward) God's creation. The Good Shepherd would not be amused.

I have read that approx 5,000 were restocked in VA fox preserves, but only in the anti Fox penning articles that are going around. I searched the VDGIF website and could not find anything other than automobiles and farm machinery are among the deadliest things to a fox. Fox can be hunted and chased in the wild as well, so I don't know how anyone could come up with that number. Could you please post the link of the VDGIF website location so I can read it? That is an awful high number and I would like to see it. If I was a fox, I still think I would like the preserve better. Seems alot more of them are still killed in the wild. I wouldn't want to be hunted for my fur. If you could post the link to those statistics I would love to see it. That is staggering.
Thanks!

Something doesn't add up here ... even if, suspending common sense for the moment, the Fox Penning proponents are correct that foxes live an idyllic life playing among the doggies in well supplied forest "preserves" that are enclosed to protect them from automobiles ... the fact is that foxes are considered WILDLIFE and nobody should have the right to trap, transport, and enclose them for any purpose.

But in fact, if one is willing to APPLY common sense ... then it quickly becomes obvious that Fox Penners are in this for the MONEY ... because, especially with cockfighting and dogfighting now 100% illegal in Virginia, turning packs of dogs against foxes appears to the last legal refuge of those who seek such obscene blood sports with animals.

Again the question is raised: Why is it so important to Fox Penners that there be the "competitions" with the all the cash prizes? ... Chances are, if those would be outright dropped, Fox Penners would gain credibility ... (though probably lose your paid lobbyist).

Remember the ENRON scam of a decade ago: "If it doesn't make sense, don't believe it!"

Joe,
My whole issue with any of this is that all of you are pointing fingers at something you can't prove. You just don't like it and want it gone. I am always open to both sides. The fact is the Preserve owners have made their case to me. They have answered my questions, I have toured the enclosures and have seen first hand what a field trial is and how it is handled. The opposition such as yourself has not presented me with any concrete data that it is cruel. I just want to see data that proves more fox die in the enclosures that on the outside. i want to see data that proves a fox lives longer on the outside rather than the inside. I want to see data that shows how many escape, how many die a natural death, and how many die by being caught compared to how many die on the outside.
Yes it does take money to purchase feed and medications, The field trial helps with this.

I know the fox in the wild are killed by automobiles, farm machinery, coyotes, bears, trappers for their fur, rabies, distemper, hunters dogs and are shot for being a nusience.
Until the opposition can show me thru proven data that the fox die in greater numbers in the preserves, I will side with the Preserve owners. They have shown me their case based on fact. The opposition has not.

Debbie Lynn:

Even if it could be conclusively demonstrated that the average life expectancy of a fox is GREATER in the captivity and stress of being enclosed in a Fox Pen rather than in "The Wild" (which would be difficult to do ... unless you are now going to claim that foxes are BORN AND RAISED in Fox Pens??!!! -- puhhhleeeezzze, let's not COMPLETELY abandon common sense, LOL!!!) ... there are still two issues that you need to address:

[1] By what right do YOU PEOPLE have to capture and fence in ANY of Virginia's WILDLIFE designated animals?

[2] That whole "Quality of Life" thing. I mean, using your argument one might conclude that the average longevity of a puppy dog in a Puppy Mill could perhaps be greater than that of the "average" puppy dog that is never enclosed in one (since, sadly, so many die so young) ... and therefore that dogs confined to the horror of Puppy Mills are somehow "better off" than those that are not.

The "common denominator" here, folks, is Common Sense ... After successfully outlawing all other forms of animal fighting in Virginia, lets restrict by law so-called "Fox Penning" too!

As a matter of fact there are kits born and raised in the enclosures. They are not open year round and do not have hounds in them 24/7.
1.-I don't appreciate being called you people. I have been nothing short of polite and I would appreciate the same from you. The enclosures were put in place to keep hounds from running all over landowner property and to keep them out o f the roads. Even if the enclosures were shut down, there still would be field trials. It is legal to have them on the outside as well as the inside of the enclosure. This says to me, you really don't care about the fox, you just hate the fence. These captured fox are given a chance to live without the fear of rabies, coyotes, bears, and the many other things that can harm them. The you people you refer to have the same rights as you do as free Americans. I feel the fact is you have no proof, can not provide any proof, and just rely on folks emotions to win your cause. I have firt hand seen the other side, none of you have. So....that makes me wonder where you get your facts of cruelty from if:
1. You have never been to a facility
2. You have no data to back up your claims
Not all of us are sheep that just can be lead by someones word it is so. Some like me want facts.

2. There is no comparison of a Foxhound Training Preserve and a puppy Mill. Since the fox live in 300 to 1000 acres of natural wooded habitat and a puppy in a puppy mill lives in a kennel cage. The fox are not bred to death, they are not locked up in a kennel cage, and they are not uncared for. A fox is left alone for the most part. They established their communities, build dens and thrive. They are not stressed living in the enclosure. They are fed daily a very high protien diet, they are medicated if sick thru feeding, they are vaccinated and wormed. They are way healthier than a fox on the outside. They do not contract mange and have beautiful coats. How can that be compared to a puppy Mill...I think you are truly reaching on that one.
I also ask Virginia.....How can you be so quick to condem something you have no idea about. I have presented the facts through education and seeing first hand. The opposition has proved nothing. They are using the old play on emotions hat trick that they can not even produce any proof on. Field Trialing may not be for everybody, but the ones that do enjoy it should be left alone. All of this cruelty propoganda is just that....propoganda to scare the ones who do not know what Foxhound Training Preserves are and to be lead blindly to the oppositions side.

Debbie Lynn:

Still there appears to be no real response to the two issues that I raised, which I will clarify so as try not offend you

[1] By what right does ANYONE have to capture and fence in ANY of Virginia's WILDLIFE designated animals?

[2] I did not state that a Fox Pen is EQUIVALENT to a Puppy Mill, only that your longevity argument did not take into account "Quality of Life".

Meanwhile, I do have some good news for you ... if you actually READ the text of the bill coming up for vote in the Virginia Senate on Thursday -- SB 1280 -- you will find that the all the Fox Pen enclosures that you have seen first hand will NOT be shut down, and the safe and humane "training" practices that you say you have seen first hand will NOT be affected -- EXCEPT in one respect: MONEY no longer will be permitted to change hands after the "competitions" that are held within these enclosures with the foxes and the hounds.

SO, Debbie Lynn ... knowing that the only thing that will change for the Fox Pens is that it will be illegal for MONEY to be paid out as part of these fox-hound "competitions" ... don't you agree that we should pass SB 1280? Allowing this bill to become Virginia law will virtually guarantee that nobody could ever confuse Fox Penning with Animal Fighting.

Unless there is written consent from every owner of the fox(es) ( All Virginia Residents ) that we condone it being removed from the Wild (purchased), Placed in a Pen and then used as Bait for training.... then they are being STOLEN!! If there is anybody that is FOR Penning.. I urge you to KIK me: BDACIAT or visit my Facebook Page: Animal Freedom and Liberation Movement to further discuss.

So, ..if Thursday does not go as planned....and If they are storing them in enclosures... for training purposes then I feel this should apply (and if not this I will dig until something does)... I am gathering law makers names and numbers for each city a pen is located. To A: Report Virginia Residents property as STOLEN as well as B: Violation of LAW for storing animals that are NOT allowed to be "Sold" in the state of Virginia.

All Wiildlife is owned by the State itself, not the inviduals of the state. The VA Department of Game and Inland Fisheries is the governing owners and overseers of all wildlife in VA.
The law permits everything that takes place within the preserves. The laws permit foxes to be trapped live, trapped and shot, pursued by hounds without intent, and to be killed through hunting. The basic difference is that the enclosures offer a level of safety that these lawful acts outside of enclosure can't offer. The enclosure's removal doesn't impact fox hunting.....it just removes the safety factor that the enclosure brings.
Money is not awarded in a Field Trial. Trophies and silver are the only thing awarded. The only money exchanged are entry fees that goes to feeding the fox, maintaining the enclosure and roads.
The quality of life is good for the fox as many of the dangers are removed by being in the enclosure. We have the VDGIF to watch out for the wildlife. I am sure they have more than enough help. I am sure your intentions are good, but they are mislead by the othe anti groups. When you can show me cold hard data proving that more fox die in the enclosure by mortality rates inside verses outside of the enclosure I will be glad to read them. I haven't seen any facts to back up your claims.

The right to trap and transport foxes can be found under 4VAC 15-110-75.....

Well here is what I REALLY don't understand, Debbie Lynn ...

IF, as you have assured us, there is no actual money changing hands in the competitions ... then WHY do you oppose passage of SB 1280, since it merely outlaws something that is not currently being done anyway? (You perhaps might look at it as a preventative measure to ensure that Fox Penning remains the good, clean, wholesome sport that you tell us that it is.) And as previously noted, other than the new financial restrictions, it places no new restrictions on any of the existing Fox Pens, such as all of those that you have seen first hand

So, Debbie Lynn, will you now give your support to passage tomorrow in the Virginia Senate of SB 1280 ... and, if you get moment, be sure today and call your Virginia representatives for their support also?

Debbie, can you please also copy and paste the law that allows the storage of wildlife for utilization in training dogs? Since you feel that the law that you posted covers the activities that take place at these locations. And there is not a GROUP that is giving me information... it is personally gathered information about these locations and their activities..... And, as it is stated above, why are you afraid to stand behind a vote of " YES on SB1280" if everything is happy foxes and roses! Since these Pens are SO FOR saving foxes from Natural Disaster!!! You would think that you would also like to save them from the individuals that (you may not know) committing these horrendous acts. And I could copy and paste laws all day long that could be read in a way that Pens are totally violating!! However, I will keep that for after Thursday....

And Debbie,Fox Penning is in no way shape of form an act of Fox Hunting, let's please maintain the HUGE difference between the two. Let's review:
1. Foxhunting is a competition between fox and hound (on horseback), with the advantage clearly in favor of the fox.(Except when you keep the fox in an enclosed area with an electric fence)
2. The fox, a hunter himself, seems to enjoy outwitting the persistent hounds and will lead them on a merry chase before seeking refuge in a ground hog hole or other safe haven. It is important to keep in mind that the fox is in command of the hunt, as he may elect to run, or he may choose to simply go in a hole, or even up a tree, at any time. When the fox goes in a hole it is said that he has “gone to ground” and that ends the chase. (Penning seems to NOT end the chase when the fox hides? And notice it does not state that the fox hides in a Steel Drum or Barrel with a hole cut into it and then is harassed for hours by dogs)

3. Foxhunting is a demonstration of the skill and art of the Huntsman, as he works for and with the hounds, and they with him.(In Penning I don't see men/women on horses communicating with dogs,directing them and controlling their efforts,where is the dogs owners?)
4. Cub Hunting. This is when you take your dogs out prior to the season opening and you run with the horses and dogs for just a while to get them prepared.( Well let's see If these dogs are trained in and by Pens which is not the official way to train for Fox Hunting, it does not teach the dog how to really hunt out the fox in its Natural Environment (since it is not his natural environment and natural hiding spots) so it seems to me that there is no real backing on what would be educational for these dogs in a Pen or how the large number of foxes being put into the Pens (which by the way is a number reported by the Pens) so you see,I know the Pens are an underground betting / competitive location for people to try to prove something in their life while utilizing another creatures life for their enjoyment. Now I didn't create these facts ... you can view them at : http://www.marlboroughhuntclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=3

Like I said....

Dear Ms. Dacia,

Thank you for taking the time to express your views on fox penning; I fully respect the passion with which those on both sides of this debate approach the issue.

I do not support fox penning and plan to vote in favor of SB 1280 which will outlaw the practice in Virginia. While I do support the right of Virginians to hunt I do not believe that fox penning can reasonably be said to qualify as hunting. Many other states outlaw the practice already and I believe that Virginia should join them. I strive to represent my constituents and the Commonwealth to the best of my ability and whether or not you agree with me on this particular vote you can be sure that it was made only after careful consideration.

I encourage you to stay in touch with my office as session continues, and please do not hesitate to let me know if there is anything that I can do to be of service.

Thank You

George Barker

Senator, 39th District

Although Senator Barker correctly observes that many other states outlaw Fox Penning ... Virginia SB 1280 will "grandfather in" Fox Pens that have been in operation prior to January 1, 2013.

THUS, as we have already noted, the only real "threat" that the bill has for existing Fox Pens such as those that Debbie Lynn has described is the criminalization of monetary transactions related to the competitions ... which, Debbie Lynn assures us, never even happen anyway! :)

Sounds like "win-win" to me! ... "YES on SB 1280"!!! :) ...

Joe,

Thank you for the civil debate. We're not going to change either's mind or position. You asked me to support the bill, and I can't. I'm confident that if you read the bill very closely, you wouldn't support it either. Your concern is the same as mine....it's a concern for the welfare of the foxes. I've gone and looked for myself...and I'm confident that their welfare is as good, and likely better inside than it would be outside.

But, if you'll read the bill's text very closely, you'll realize that what the bill outlaws inside of an enclose, it legalizes on the outside of an enclosure. The bill stops none of the acts that you oppose, except for it calls for the removal of the fencing. I'm convinced that the fencing offers more benefit than detriment.
The enclosures are natural habitat and I feel they are safer there. I love them too.

continued.....
Read the bill....it acknowledges that foxes can be caught by hounds.....so pen or no pen, this can happen. It doesn't make awards, cash prizes, or competition unlawful, so long as it takes place outside of an enclosure.

It restricts transfer of a business that someone has invested their entire life into....to only their spouse which can't be legal.....but everything the bill wants to outlaw would still remain legal.

I just can't make it make sense. The bill is simply saying it's ok that hounds may catch foxes. It's ok to wager, compete and award prizes. It's ok to hunt, trap, chase and shoot foxes. All the bill really says is....we don't like enclosure. Make it make sense please.

Dacia, we agree much more than we disagree. So if I understand you right.....if horses were ridden within the pens, and the pens had groundhog dens.....you'd be supportive of this activity? Now, I suspect every pen in VA has groudhog dens, since groundhogs are abundant throughout the state? But, you seem to assume that if horses were involved there'd be no competition, no awards, and no wagering......which I wouldn't believe is the case. Essentially, we agree......since we both have concerns about the welfare of the foxes. Again, nothing I've personally witnessed, and nothing you've shared convinces me that the pens contribute to a lack of fox welfare.

.Oh....and horses are not disallowed in the pens. So maybe if the bill required hunters to be on horseback it would be better?

Debbie,
I don't want penning to get confused with hunting. And , I have met "real" Fox Hunters (historic practice on horseback) and, I have never met or talked to one that has actually caught a fox. I am not opposed to wildlife natural incidents happening, such as foxes dying in the wild. I am however opposed to putting them in electrified pens and making them run for the rest of their lives. I am not trying to save wild foxes from the circle of a natural life... I am trying to save foxes from being brutally ripped apart by a pack of dogs before its natural life is suppose to end. And, please do not offend me by aligning our beliefs in any way. Unless you are a Vegan, Animal Liberation Activist then we are far from agreeing on a single thing.

Dacia.....
No I am not a vegan (no way) and I am not an animal extremist. Have you ever talked to a Foxhound Training Preserve Owner or someone who does field trial? You seemed to have talked to those who do it on horseback, so why not to the ones who you are questioning and trying to have stripped of their rights? I am going to share this thread with a very nice, informative preserve owner and I will let her weigh in on this. You and your organization are trying to put folks out of business. You are doing it on assumptions, not on first hand expierence. That is truly unfair. I don't particularly care for all the Animal rights groups, but I don't try to have you shut down. It is your right. Just as these folks have their rights. It is not up to you to have these folks lose everything they have worked very hard for. You are misguided by your beliefs and are willing to hurt people to have your way. That is what it all boils down to. People have bills, children, homes, and have to make a living and I don't really understand why you would delibertly hurt good people to have your way. I can't believe you would put an animal's value over a person who is just trying to keep their heads above water. How would you like someone do that to you? You don't get a say and everyone is moe concerned for your cat than they are for you and your children. Think about it.

Debbie, I can guarantee that if I drove up to the closest pen I would be met with hatred. Let me explain something carefully... my beliefs , since I do not "belong" to a group are Human Liberation and Animal Liberation. First, you can not "shut that down" second, I am a very compassionate person who does disregard individuals that take or create any pleasure out of the suffering of an Earthling. I am not trying to keep anybody from supporting their family or paying their bills as long as they do it in a moral and ethical way if there are Earthlings at stake. I am very interested to see how tomorrow fairs, there has been such a buzz in my network all day today.

If you drove up to a pen and expressed your interest in seeing it and asking some questions, you would be welcomed in. There is nothing to hide. Never has been. You just choose not to for fear of being wrong. I went, and like I said. I had a very nice visit and I was very impressed with the facility and the shear beauty of the enclosure. It was huge, about 300 acres. have you ever walked 300 acres? There is one near me that I have also visited and was equally impressed. it was almost 1000 acres. (almost 1 square mile). I did what you are unwilling to do. You are afraid to do it. These fox are so much safer in the enclosure. i absolutley hate the fur trade. Just the thought of that sickens me. It gives me great relief to know the ones in the enclosure are spared that. All the crap videos the HSUS is is putting out there are either stagged or not even in VA. Virginia has the best regulated, up to date regs there are. The Foxhound Training Preserve Owners Associations does alot to ensure the safety of these animals.

I am going to try and describe what I saw....I was allowed in during a field trial. I was with a judge. The hounds are young, that is why they are there. I saw a fox cross the path we were on. He wasn't running, just walking across the path. He went on and didn't seem to bothered at all. I saw him disappear into a hole. I waited a bit and it was about 2 min before I even heard a hound. They came running by sniffing the ground and making their "full cry". The judge wrote the numbers down in the order they crossed by us on the path. They just went on right past the the den. After a while the fox came out and went back across the path. He didn't look bothered at all. I also watched as the owners of the hounds came in and caught the hounds. I never saw a drop of blood on any hound. Afterwards the judges totaled the scores and trophies were awarded to the hounds that scored the most points by being seen by the other judges. That was it. No blood, no guts, just folks getting together to see if their hounds had the right stuff.

I could not find any cruelty. This is just a cause started by the HSUS to make money. Causes bring big donations.
FACT: The animal rights people did this in the UK and had the Fox hunting on horses outlawed because the beautiful fox was a victim, just like right now here. After it was banned and the hoopla died down, the fox was forgotten. The fox in the UK are treated no better than a common rat and is shot on sight as a nusience. At least here, they are protected from that.
I CAN NOT SUPPORT THAT BILL!!!!!

Debbie Lynn, I thank you also for a most civil discourse on a very controversial -- and emotional -- subject.

I think everyone understands that the people who are in the business of operating Fox Pens in Virginia today -- with many, as you note, being family owned -- will face hardships as more legal scrutiny is encountered. Honestly, with Fox Penning banned in so many other states, and with all other forms of animal fighting criminalized in Virginia ... how can it be otherwise?

Businesses change as they need to -- whether by regulatory or economic circumstances.

My advice to any current Virginia Fox Pen business: Change now. Set the standard. Treat both foxes and hounds humanely, and be able to prove that you do. Refuse to permit any "competition" monetary transactions with your customers. Document scrupulously so as to pass the inevitable upcoming audits. "Just do it" now, regardless of SB 1280.

I guarantee that you will not regret it.

Joe,

Thank you too. From my understanding the operators were open to better regulation. Closing down an operation doesn't seem like better regulation, especially when the reason some seek closure, would continue to remain perfectly lawful. I understand that some oppose the competition aspect. Should that also mean that we don't wager on race horses, or award trophies for dogs that are best in show? What about ribbons at 4-H events for a pretty duck or cow?

Existing liberty justifies the existence of similar liberty......but it never justifies removal of similar liberty. Closing the pens doesn't remove fox hounding.....it only takes away the safety aspect of enclosure.

REFERENCE: "Panel endorses stopping fox-pen competitions" - Richmond Times-Dispatch, 2/1/13 [http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/panel-endorses-stopping-fox-pen-competitions/article_1e1fc86a-a82b-518c-9b95-739aa3986633.html]

Debbie Lynn, although it is true that some people don't like to see legalized gambling, you need to understand that it is NOT the BETTING per se but what is being bet ON that is the crux of this issue. Note that in horse races and show dog events, the animals do not fight ... as opposed to Fox Penning competitions, where savage fighting not only occurs but is bet on, thus fueling this horrific cycle of violence and animal abuse.

At the referenced link, you will find an excellent account of the victory achieved yesterday before the Senate Agriculture Committee with the passage of a substituted version of SB 1280 that will eliminate the "root cause" of the problem. I WAS THERE, and I can assure you that the witnesses that presented evidence to the panel (including photos) certainly gave very knowledgeableable and disturbing testimony!

Okay Joe...Here is how I really feel.....
While you are gloating over your little victory, I sit here a wonder how an organization can put an animal on a pedastel, and to hell with those it affects.
Brian and I have a small business. It is located near a local Preserve. We sell items catering to the Field Trialer. It is our bread and butter. Our business was built around leagal activity. We have put everything into our business. Now, as you sit here and gloat, we could lose everything we have worked so very hard to have. Why? Because some animal extremists want to cry foul over something they can't even speak on first hand expierence, and have no data to back up their claims. They just want to win their cause and don't care about the human damage they cause because the animal is more important.

Fox don't have bills to pay, a home, a car payment, Insurance, children in college, or have to buy the food they eat. They are beautiful, but don't rank above a human and should never be above someones bread and butter. How dare you all think you can come in and mess with peoples incomes.
The crying lady was great!!!! But here is a fact of a fox that proves she is either lying for ya'll or doesn't know a fox.
I live out in the country. Lots of foxes here and I have read up on them because of the screaming they do here on the farm. Fox bark and scream. They scream like something is tearing them apart more in the winter, during breeding,calling their mate or another fox. It will raise the hair on your neck! When they are eluding prey they are silent for obivious reasons. They are like rabbits in the fact they are shy and shock easily. When they are caught by predators the end is quick and they make no noise.
So, gloat away and revel in your victory that you may put some great folks out of buiness with your cause. I will not applaud you.

Debra....
Just so you understand lady......You don't have enough fingers and toes to count the money I have raised for people especially children in my community with carnivals and festivals. I also raised a butt load of cash for a young child paralyzed in a car accident. Our store donates items for raffles alot. Brian and I also donated 150lbs pounds of dog food, 90 lbs of cat food, 50 lbs of litter and cash money to our local shelter for Christmas as well. I also did a food drive last Christmas that gave 28 families Christmas dinner. What have you done? Don't you dare preach to me about humanity. My store caters to the field trialing, but it also sells groceries, that the folks who can't drive can have access to. As far as your snide comment, these folks at the Preserves do alot for humanity and probably have done more than most of you. We exploit no one or no animal. It is your distorted ideals that are exploiting the Fox Preserves and the folks who own them. It is great to champion a cause, but when you do it in the media and try to cause folks to lose income, that makes you an exploiter. We are NOT criminals, just victims of folks like you who need something in your life to bitch about. I am proud of my business, I am proud of my field trialing friends and Fox Preserve Owners for all they do for HUMANITY with their fund raising and charity work. I will fight for my business and them. Now you can roll that up and smoke it in your pipe lady!

The End does NOT justify The Means, Debbie Lynn ...

If you were present at last Thursday's hearing before the Senate Agriculture Committee that approved SB 1280 ... and your recent posts indicate that you were ... then that means that in addition to witnesses such as "The crying lady" as you refer to her -- people who gave first hand accounts of the cruelty they have witnessed in the trapping and day-to-day penning of foxes -- you also saw and heard Mr. Ed Clark of the Wildlife Center of Virginia [http://wildlifecenter.org/about-center/meet-staff] describe the risk to the public of a prolific rabies outbreak virtually waiting to happen, due to the complete lack of competent handling of the species that puts both humans and dogs at risk.

You came on to this blog, seemingly as merely an independent third party trying to get to the "truth" about Fox Penning ... now you openly admit that you have a complete financial dependence on the "competitions" that define the enterprise ... justifying it only because sometimes proceeds of the money earned from the horrific animal fighting supposedly go to worthy causes.

Debbie Lynn, you are right about one thing: Currently under Virginia law, Fox Pen competitions are legal. And THAT is a big part of the problem ... which is why we need to see SB 1280 become the law in Virginia.

I was not at the meeting. I do know the truth, it you and your animal groups who are misinformed. I get my information from asking questions, going to see for myself, and I do not rely on FB,Youtube or any of the other money making cronies out there. I do not justify the pens because of our business, I do not make money off of the backs of foxes and I do not support animal fighting. I have never heard of diease in the fox pen, I know the crying lady is hearing the fox just screeching, and I know that the pictures and videos are not from VA. I am 54 years old. I am old enough to know right from wrong and smart enough to check things out before I open my mouth about it. I am not a follower. All of you on this board is going on things you have been told. Not what you have seen. You sit in these meetings and believe everything you hear. There are always two sides to the coin. If you chose to believe the HSUS you go ahead and do so. That is your right as a free American. But, it is my right as a free American to say that they are full of crap and just doing this so they can add another donation button on their website. We are just the latest moneymaking project for them. I was willing to listen to what you had to say incase I was missing something. But, you have no facts, no data. Money makes people say anything....Sadness and gore brings donations. It is all a money game. You all are so nieve if you believe all the things that are being said.

Debbie Lynn, if you were not at the Virginia Senate Agriculture Committee hearing (like I was) ... then how did you know that one of the female witnesses cried as she described what she had seen first hand? (No news article that I am aware of has reported that fact.)

Could it me that it is YOU that is relying on what people tell you is the truth, rather than what is ACTUALLY the truth ... because to admit otherwise would just be too difficult for you?

Once again, I do believe that you are essentially right on one point: For whatever reason, sadness and gore does seem to bring in money ... and if you really object to that (as I do) ... then I respectfully suggest that you should find a different business to be in.

I really enjoyed your video Debbie Lynn thanks for posting. Theses people on here have no idea what a real fox pen is like they are just going off of what they see on tv and have been told its not far to me or my 4 year old child to try and take this away from us and what about all the donations to fire departments and one of the biggest hunts of the year is donated to cancer

I am ver familiar with the lady who cries. I do not know her name, so I can't call her by it. But she has been at a few of the meetings. As I had stated earlier a friend of minr is a Preserve owner. She was there and filled me in on the meeting. I am following all of this carefully and only relying on the facts. I would just really like to know how you know what the truth is? I went, I saw, I questioned. You didn't. How can you sit there and type like you are the all knowing? I am not afraid to admit, I know the truth, I know you all are being mislead by a money making scheme. Do some real research on the HSUS. My business is not funded on blood and gore. My business is funded by Brian and myself. Plus the elderly, the poor, the field trialers, hunters during hunting season, fireman, Emts, judges, Dr's, and anyone else who happens thru the door. I have no shame in my business and am very proud of it. If you feel that an animal has more rights than a person that is your right.. You shouldn't force your beliefs upon others and cause them duress over losing their income and enjoyment in life. If you don't like it, simply stay away from it. I think scrapbooking is stupid, but I don't go around trying to take it away from folks.

Exercising your own Freedom of Choice in a way that limits anyone else's Freedom of Choice is a direct crime against the Purpose of the Universe.

Debbie Lynn:

But of course, you have no problem depriving a wildlife animal of its Freedom of Choice ... by trapping it, transporting it, and keeping it in an enclosed area to be victimized by packs of dogs.

And that is the fundamental issue here ... you people regard animals as nothing more than "things" that can be used in any way that you please. To include, of course, fighting other animals for your own amusement.

I can't say whether or not this is a crime against the Purpose of the Universe ... that is a bit out of my jurisdiction. But I can tell you that when SB 1280 becomes law, the last legal refuge of animal fighting will be stripped from the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Does a fox have a choice when a fur trapper traps one and it is just killed and discarded just for its fur? Does it have a choice when it is crossing the road and a speeding car hits it? Does it have a choice when it is bedded down in a field and a combine hits it? Does it have a choice when a pack of coyotes surrounds it and tears it to shreds? I love animals and appreciate the beauty the good Lord has provided us. We are not you people as you continue to say. We are folks who live out here in the ountry. We walk the line, we go to church, we work hard , we say yes mam no mam and we value our family unit. We believe being in the outdoors with our children. We would not take our children to the bloodfest you describe. I am sorry you are so misinformed and wish to hurt good folks. But that is your right. I respect that. BUT we have rights too. It is not up to you or others to infringe upon them. America is free for a reason. It is groups like these that are slowly trying to take away the freedoms of people they don't agree with.

Breaking News: SB 1280, bill to regulate Fox Penning, passes Virginia Senate.

REFERENCE: Richmond Times-Dispatch [http://www.timesdispatch.com/virginia-legislature/image_f650fa3c-6ff6-11e2-b0e3-001a4bcf6878.html]

A breakdown of Who-Voted-How can be found at: http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?131+vot+SV0363SB1280+SB1280

NEXT STOP: Virginia House of Delegates! :) ...

I have already started the push for the house. Initiated the movement yesterday. The buzz is starting. Ethical business people, its not rocket science. And , I really wish certain individuals in the conversation would quit trying to link Natural Occurances with Deliberate ones. Not a very solid way to try to get a rally behind what you are doing. We will take the win. Now clean up your business.

Dacia........ I hope you never have a fear of losing everything you have worked for. I hope you never are sleepless because of gut wrenching over your liveliehood. I hope no one ever attacks you for your beliefs and way of life. I hope you never lose your freedom of choice by a group who knows nothing about you or your way of life. It is a sad world we live in today when a group can swoop in at any moment and take everything from you because they don't like it. IF you win this, I hope you all can sleep knowing that folks lost everything because of you. You weren't satisfied until you squashed it like a bug under your shoe. I hope your group enjoys the fact that you persecuted good people without any proof or data to back up your claims. You just don't like it. We as a country are going to hell in a handbasket and groups such as yours are sending it there faster. I hope the economy never gets to a point where it just collapases and all we know is gone. I can tell you, when you can't go to the grocery store anymore, you will need us out here in the country. We won't be there for you......All the wildlife you saved will have eaten all those veggies you love due to over population. In your effort to save all animals, and if you have your way...your groups will cause death to the ecosystem.....I appreciate your joy and glee in the possible death of my livliehood. I am just another American that has been turned on by the likes of extremists like you.

Oh Debbie, hush.... your all worked up and this law only effects the individuals doing the wrong things... and, you have repeatedly stated that there is nothing going on at the pens that could be seen as illegal. So, who are you referring to that is losing everything? I mean.... since nobody is doing anything wrong? Your such a confusing woman. And, just to educate you a tad. It is factory farming that is eating up the huge part of our resources... greenhouse gases even more so then the Auto Industry. Before you try to implement a thought that being a Vegan Animal Activist will destroy our ecosystem....I suggest you educate yourself on the topic. And, I would never reference " squashing you like a bug" that is against my beliefs. However, going forward maintain a business that is Ethical and in line with the law and you will do just find darling. Spread the word. Peace , Love and Tofu!

Man...You really havent done your homework. All I am going to say on that.
Tofu is made from soy beans...Deer love soy beans and account for alot of crop damage. Imagine if they are unchecked? Where are you going to get your tofu then? This country was founded on the Farmer and industry. I will stick with them.
Love and a big juicy steak!!!!!

Wait... you didn't answer who is losing everything since they are doing nothing wrong???? I was so looking forward to that response! Oh, wait you DID answer it. We don't need words to understand the way you operate. The biggest percentage of criminals play victim so well. Like the guy that beats his wife.. "She made me do it to her!" or the guy that robs the bank " They fired me for no reason and I had to feed my family" or the Serial rapist " I was abused as a child" . Get over yourself and get a real job that does not cause pain and suffering. And , do some research... children at a young age who kill small animals usually end up with some life long "social and mental" issues. And you guys are teaching young children to utilize dogs to kill foxes that they are not even going to eat? or utilize the fur? WTH??? Like a breeding ground for criminals...or something. Ok, and another educational piece... for the Millionth time to you people... Your food does not poop on my food!! Carry on law abiding citizen.. and pick up some books or google more often! I am no longer entertained by this conversation so, no other response is warranted.

Lots of small businesses will lose....If folks can't field trial, they won't be training. I am not a criminal because I do not share your beliefs. My job causes no pain nor suffering as I don't hang fox out back behind the store. Maybe a demented child would grow up to be a serial killer, but children who hunt and spend time with their family outdoors tend to grow into a well rounded adult. We are teaching our childrren to be self sufficent. Believe me, the way things are going today, they will need it. I never said a word about popping so, I will just skip that one. I read a great amount of my time. I live on a farm, my customers are farmers and so are several of my friends. The only group I affiliate myself with is a free American. If you want to live on tofu, go ahead. I really don't mind. I believe in to each his own....It is your group who does not.
Even though Animal Rights groups are making life miserable for so many including myself, I would never go the General Assembly to have you shut down. I guess that is the difference between you and me.
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